WHAT is the MESSAGE..? Crop Circles and UFOs

Show Transcript

So in the last four years that I've had this channel, the topic of crop circles is one that I've definitely kept a distance from because to be honest, it's full of controversy because every time I come across a video or an article or anything in between, they always talk about the human hoaxers aspect and it's very dismissive and I can get that. (00:35) But over the last year, but very specifically over the last few weeks, okay, I've been contacted by a handful of researchers and witnesses that have mentioned that there's a little bit more to this than the human hoaxing aspect to it. And so I ended up deciding just to do a deep dive into this and ultimately, What I ultimately found is that crop circles, it has something tangible to it that we can put our hands on and study. (01:10) And so this episode is going to be talking about some of the pioneers that prove that there is something going on, more so than just the hoaxer explanation. So just for a moment, just for the... At least 90 minutes. Let's suspend our bias and see where this takes us. I'm going to bring in my co-host, Jimmy Church, of Fade to Black Radio. (01:32) Aliens. Aliens. Dumb by aliens. Dumb by aliens. Dumb by aliens. How are you, Christina? I don't know what you've been up to. Researching. You sound melancholy today. And I know why. Because this is a subject. It's like a minefield, right? It's like you want to tiptoe through this one. And no, no, you don't have to. (02:04) Crop circles are an enigma, and we're going to do a deep dive today. I'm okay with that. I, like you, I haven't done many shows on crop circles, but I've done a lot of research, and I've been contacted throughout the years by many that are involved in it and that go out for crop circle season and watch everything out there. (02:31) unfold and fly over and see what happened on the night before. And it's pretty incredible. And you know what? Enigma is the right word here. It's definitely a mystery with a history. It goes back quite a long ways. And we'll be discussing that too as well. But why? Why did you decide to tiptoe into this one today? Well, as mentioned in the intro, I've had people tell me about them more so than previously. (03:07) So I feel like just in the last, what, 2024, I've received more questions and comments on it than ever before. And for a very long time, I thought to myself, because the majority of them have been categorized as human hoaxes, like I've Why why cover it? Right. But there's still that percentage, that small percentage that is in the category of unexplained. (03:32) And then after doing the research for today's show specifically, I thought to myself, there's some interesting things to it, like UFO sightings, like UFOs. orbs in and around these crop circles, healing properties. Could that be the placebo effect, right? All of these different things that we can't always categorize with hoaxers. (03:54) And so that's what this show is about. It's just providing more information than that one article that maybe many people have read at some point in their life where they say, nope, it's these two people, it's this group of people, and that's that. There's a little bit more to it. And there's actually been... (04:10) some significant scientific research on that we are going to get into that I think needs more credence that people do not talk about. So I'm excited for this episode. There's a good amount of stuff to cover. And to be honest with you, Jimmy, I'm glad I'm not doing this episode alone. So I want to say, well, I say, I say, I say not so fast. (04:36) Not so fast on the hoaxing part. And not so fast. There's one interesting aspect to this, and I will defend the crop circle community on this point. Nobody's been caught. Thousands and thousands of crop circles have. Nobody's been caught, and that includes the aliens, right? Okay, so nobody's been caught. (05:06) The two guys, and we'll discuss this in a bit or whenever you're ready, but the two hoaxsters who surfaced back in 1990 or something, 91. We'll talk about it in a second. I don't have it in front of me. And they come out and they say, oh, we created 200 crop circles between whatever it was, 1977 and 1991, something like that, 200 crop circles. (05:35) And they demonstrated how they did it. And they had a rope and they had a board and they stepped through and it was the sloppiest, stupid. It was a hoax saying they were hoaxing. That's what that was. And it was like, no, no, no, no. You two guys are doing your thing, but you didn't do that. These two guys aren't going out into these fields with these elaborate geometric mathematical craziness of precision and creating those. (06:10) No, they did not. And that's it. That's it. That's it. I will take that. I will defend it. And in the meantime, nobody else has been caught. you would think that these crop circles, elaborate, ginormous in some cases, and I've got some pictures and so do you, that have been created, and most of them virtually overnight. (06:33) Nobody has been busted. And to that point, if you're a farmer, and your money is coming in from a wheat field, and somebody comes in and plops down 500 circles and literally ruins acres and acres and acres and acres of your income, you're going to be on the prowl. You're going to be armed. You're going to be dangerous. (06:59) You're going to be ready, and you're going to catch somebody, and you want them to be caught because that's your livelihood. That's your money. That's never happened. And I will defend that. So with all of the video cameras, with all of this, and the alertness of the crop circle community, certainly through crop circle season, somebody would be on the alert. (07:26) And that includes news and the media and journalists and people that are ready to go and to catch somebody and to bust somebody. It's never happened. It's never happened. There's only been one, like, slight case. So it remains an enigma. And until somebody gets caught, which apparently is literally thousands and thousands and thousands of people doing this, nobody has ratted anybody out, and there's been no evidence presented for that. (07:55) So I will defend it until it comes forward now. Am I suspicious? Yeah. Or some human? Yeah, they are. But the reports of this go back hundreds and hundreds of years. They used to call them demon circles. And we're going to get into that. I do have an image to share with people along with the story behind it. (08:17) And while we're covering the information today, there is a poll up for those watching this live. And the question is, what do you think is behind the creation of crop circles? Out of the 185 votes so far, 19% say aliens, 18% say interdimensionals, 9% say humans, and 55% say a mix of all of the above. We will revise this poll near the end of today's episode to hear what people think about this. (08:50) And thank you so much, Timmy Boy, for supporting the channel as well. Jimmy, you started off with talking about... demons may be making crop circles. I want to share this image here. And we will get into the story. Hold on, let me pull it up. There it is. Look at this. It's called the mowing devil. And here we have what looks like a demon making these crop circles. (09:15) And here literally it is a, well, it's not a circle. It's more like a rectangle, but it's pretty close to a circle. Why is this case so significant when it comes to researching crop circles? Because anyone could easily say, ah, you know what? It's just a demon making mischief. That's what they do. (09:34) But how is there a connection between this, the mowing devil and crop circles, Jimmy? Well, it's obvious. Well, that's a crop oval, right? But this dates back to, this is 1678, and the pamphlet newspaper, it's got this headline, The Mowing Devil, and you can see that there. Or, and underneath it, it says, strange news out of Hertfordshire. (10:08) And it's what I would consider like one of the first depictions of a crop circle. Now, there's some things that are strange here. One, it looks like he's cutting it. But you can see that it's laying flat, and you can definitely see geometry there being done and how the stocks are laying flat, very similar to today. (10:34) But let's not forget here the significance of this. This is 1678, and it was a mystery. Nobody knew how these circles were being formed. And of course, you know, you slap religion on it. In 1997, Christina, keep this up. Keep this image up. In 1997, the Oxford English Dictionary recorded the earliest usage for them of the term crop circles in the 1988 issue of the Journal of Meteorology. (11:10) Now, that's interesting. It's an official journal. But the term crop circle is usually attributed to our good friend Colin Andrews. And he started using the term in the late 1970s and early 1980s. We do have a modern context to this because so much of it has been captured with cameras and the images have been distributed and books have been written. (11:42) But to have... the Oxford dictionary do this in the, in the late 1990s and pointing back to 1988. No, this goes back much, much, much, much before that. It's not a modern phenomenon, even though we do go through crop circle season every year. And while this took place in the 1600s, there was more of a prevalent amount of crop circles that appeared in the late 1970s, 80s, and 90s up until today. (12:14) But the hot time frame was between the late 70s into... the 90s early 90s mid 90s and now while they're still happening they're not happening at the same frequency not the same amount as before but this one when it comes to the mowing devil it is one of the very first ones that have been documented that people believe it to have a connection with crop circles but when we're looking at these more ancient depictions and stories there's a lot of room for interpretation Sort of, sort of, sort of, sort of. (12:55) And this is why I really enjoyed doing the show with you. I needed to not debate, but let's put some more context into this. Because this is from 1686, The Mowing Devil. The phenomena was happening. Ten years later, in 1686... An English naturalist, his name was Robert Plott, reported on rings or arcs of mushrooms in the natural history of Staffordshire and proposed that air flows from the sky was the cause. (13:36) And so the mystery continued. In 1880, a letter to the editor of Nature by amateur scientist John Rand Capron describes how several circles, okay, this is 1880, of flattened crops in a field were formed under suspicious circumstances and possibly caused by cyclonic wind action, tornadoes. stating that, and I'm quoting from him directly, as viewed from a distance, circular spots, they all presented much the same character. (14:13) A few standing stalks at the center, some stalks with their heads arranged in pretty evenly in a direction forming a circle round in the center, and outside there is a circular wall of stalks which had not suffered. Now, this is one of my favorite images right here. And if we look at this image, this is 2001, by the way. (14:43) She caught me by surprise, but I'm ready to go. This is 2001, remote area of Millkill in Wiltshire, England, 780 feet edge to edge. Now, are you ready? Are you ready? Are you guys sitting down? 409 circles. 409. Yeah, that was Bob and Fred with their rope and two by four, right? Those two old dudes out there in the field creating 409 circles over 780 feet wide, and they are perfect. (15:26) That is just, isn't that so pleasing to the eye? Isn't it? It is that kind of symmetry. Yes. When you look at it, you're like, all you can really do is admire it. Now, I don't think the farmer was when he noticed that a lot of his crops were damaged. But for everyone else witnessing this, seeing this from above or seeing images. (15:49) Yes, it is really spectacular. Now, here's a really interesting. I wouldn't say it's a fact, but some farmers because let me back up just a little bit. A lot of the crop circles, the majority of them have taken place in England. Yes, they have happened all over the world, like Bulgaria, Germany, the United States, so on and so forth. (16:11) But the majority of them have taken place in England. Farmers were losing a lot of money with these crop circles that were happening on their land. So you know what they would do, Jimmy? You know what they would do in order to somehow make ends meet? They would charge people. Of course you would. Of course you would. (16:36) I would. I would. I'd have my kids out there. Okay. No change, only money that folds. The line forms here. Of course you would. Absolutely. Now let's keep this image up for a second. And let me bring up a point that I have made a lot over the years. I think this way, and this is the way that my brain works. (17:03) So just let me paint this picture for your audience. you have to place the center of each one of those circles perfectly. How was that done? Right? So the skeptics out there, well, if somebody's standing in the center with a string and you've got somebody walking around a mark, you have to do that, and in this case, 409 times. (17:34) And geometrically and mathematically, it has to be placed perfectly. Perfectly. And when you look at this, this is an engineering marvel. This is right up there. This is like the Panama Canal. This is an engineering marvel. I have no idea. And to suggest... That these are college kids out for an evening prank and they draw this out on a piece of paper in class and then they all head out at night with flashlights and do that. (18:14) Now, I'm not saying it's aliens. But when you look at this, Christina, somebody deserves some kind of medal, some kind of award, because that is not only beautiful, but it's complex. And it took a lot of time, and nobody got caught. That's crazy to me. I don't know. I don't know if it's aliens. (18:36) But, man, we've got some weird things going on. Now, as we talk about causes of this, When I look at this image, you know what I often think of? Now, it's a strange thought, but could it be, I would love to see it just form, could it be some crazy Fibonacci electromagnetic disturbance from under the ground that comes up like lightning, you know, and it's just some natural phenomenon You know what I mean? Some Fibonacci sequence thing that is forming this, and that's how it gets done. (19:19) Now, I know that sounds... And that's what's called the Gaia theory. No, no, it's what people have considered. It is referred to as the Gaia theory, where the Earth is creating these kinds of crop circles, attempting to communicate with people. Now, it does sound like a stretch, and that's why it's merely a theory, but it's one that's very interesting. (19:37) And there's actually a handful of theories that people have considered over the decades when it comes to crop circles. But Android here... says if I win the power bowl tomorrow I will offer 1 million dollars to anyone who can do that with perfect geometry in less than 10 hours I bet I keep my money and this is a really funny thing to say especially if you're doing it by yourself that would be impossible but maybe with a whole team it might be possible but imagine just imagine here the tramp lines that you're able to (20:10) see in this image the tracks Those that are from farming vehicles, that does the seeding, and those things, they're big, okay? Those, they're huge. So it gives you context on the size of the crop formation when we are looking at these lines right here. That's three football fields wide. And only Americans use that measurement. (20:38) My gosh, do I love it. Yeah. Just from a human engineering perspective, I look at that and if humans did it, and it's quite possible that they did, I would have loved to have seen it get done and how they pulled it off and the amount of coordination. Because you would have to have, it couldn't be a couple of people. (21:08) It would have to be a team and, you know, four or five teams. Okay, you do this side of the circle. You do this quadrant. You do this one. You do this one. I don't know. I don't know. It seems too complex to pull off. So I don't know. Every angle that I look at this, Christina, it just gets more mysterious to me for sure. (21:31) But this is a great example of somebody just answer it for me. Help me out. My brain is just confused. As it is for a lot of people. And so there's been some, again, some significant research done. I'd like to get into the science aspects. I think that's where a lot of people want to look into. And I get it because I'm there too. (21:53) So while this took place in, I'm going to share another image. Hold on. Okay. This is another one. Germany. Yeah, this one's great. This one's great. Now, let's go back to your opening statements here. We often make the connection to the United Kingdom. There are images and crop circles from all around the world. (22:19) And this one happens to be in Germany. And this is also one of my favorites, too, as well. But it's not England, everybody. This is Germany. Switzerland has got their share of images. This one, let's see, this one. This is from Bavaria, southern Bavaria in Germany from 2006. Oh, it says it right there, an aerial view of Starnberg. (22:55) So, yeah, yeah. See, I've got my own notes. You like that? These are some of my favorite images. They are absolutely stunning. And we have so many more to share. And if you're enjoying the show so far, hit that like button right down below. Right now we have 458 people watching this live. Let's get to 300 likes if and only if you were enjoying the show. (23:16) So getting into the science bit, something that we all want to hear. During the 80s and 90s, there was one scientist in particular by the name of William C. Levengood. And he was a renowned biophysicist in a laboratory in Michigan. And he conducted extensive research on the plants collected from crop circles across the various countries around. (23:45) over the what almost two decades he was doing research for these for these crop circles. And his findings reveal that the plants actually have an image for this. It's really cool. Hold on. Here it is. Because what he noticed was that the plants they underwent changes at the cellular level with fractured and expanded cell pit walls indicating alterations within their internal structure that cannot be replicated by humans merely walking over them or wooden planks being pressed onto these crops. (24:25) And so, like, for instance, a lot of these crop circles took place in wheat fields, cereal crop fields. And when it comes to cereal crops, they possess nodes akin to knuckles, like what we have on our hands, which enable them to stand upright after being bent. So while slight nodal expansion, it's like a natural growth phenomenon and well-known among farmers, is extraordinary and cannot be mimicked by hoaxers using wood and rope. (25:01) This is just one of several things we're going to mention. And I'm really glad that we actually have this image up on screen because this is something that is tangible. This is something that has a scientific basis for behind it. It's not just hearsay. It's not just pretty photos of a nice crop circle, but we're looking at it at a cellular level. (25:22) And this is something that I think will pique a lot of people's interest. And Dan says, the Gaia answer I'd consider until you get things like the- Arecibo. Arecibo answer and circles in binary code. We're going to get into that, Dan. You're getting ahead of me. Hold on, but I like it. So looking at this, Jimmy, what do you think about seeing these crops under a microscope, looking at it at the cellular level? Yeah, yeah, Levengood was brilliant. (26:02) And his research, and there are a lot of the crop circle researchers that point to Levengood's research in photography and imagery and theories because he was a serious scientist and he was perplexed on this. And you're right about the nodes and the knuckles and all of his amazing, and photography and research and measurements about all of this, which would suggest, based on his research, now I know this starts to get out there, everybody, but he's a scientist looking for answers. (26:40) Any of the natural aspects to this, stepping on a plant, breaking it in half, right? And then photographing that both instantly and then over time are not the same images and the same damage that happens from a real crop circle and how those nodes are formed. And you look at them and they are different, right? I mean, there's just no question about it. (27:08) So what it would suggest is, I'm going to say supernatural, paranormal. There's something else going on. It's not something as simple as people stepping on this or crushing them or bending them down. There's something else that is causing it. Also, And you have to see this for yourself. I have one image. (27:32) I think you have this image, too, as well. But I'm going to pull this image up, Christina, because I think it's significant. And I know, like I said, I think that you have this image, but I'm going to put this up now because there is another aspect to this that is important. And it's how things just happen. (27:58) to lay flat and overlap now if you if you really look at this that is incredible and that it that is not how much trampling would have to be done to get this kind of consistency on the the ground of a field Right, to have that and to have the overlap and the overlay that is happening here. There isn't any mistakes. (28:33) There isn't anything strange. It is just absolutely perfect. Now, these nodes that we're talking about are here, right, the bending of the plants. But this is strange to me. It just doesn't look natural. It doesn't look normal. And when I say normal, I'm talking about when you go out into a field like this and you just start trampling stuff down, right? But that's not what's happening here. (29:05) It's this. That's incredible. Imagine turning that into this. How do you do that? how do you do that overnight? I, I, and that's what, um, uh, that was what was so interesting about Levengood and his research, because as a scientist, you look at this and you, the, the simplest explanation is it's a bunch of people out flattening fields. (29:35) So gather the evidence, uh, What's coming from this field versus going over and flattening stuff yourself and breaking stuff yourself, photographing it and looking at the differences. And he found it all the way down at the cellular level. It was a very interesting answer and it was very controversial. People didn't want to hear it in the scientific community. (29:57) It ruffled quite a few feathers for sure. it's controversial even today and I do want to say the bishop thank you so much for supporting the channel and honestly just everyone that's dropping super chat and super stickers it really helps the channels I want to say I really appreciate it and thank you so much um something that I wanted to bring up here is it is the aspect of hoaxers I know we have people watching this live they're saying all crop circles were created by humans and before doing the research for this show, (30:27) I was leaning towards that way. Now finding this information, I'm thinking maybe a lot of them could be, but maybe not all of them. And let me provide you an example. I'm going to share an image here really just as a visual aid so that we're not staring just at our face. But what's interesting about some of these crop circles is that People have mentioned having healing properties. (30:52) People have measured higher levels of radiation more so than other ones that have been accepted as being man-made. Yes, we've had a have had and we probably still do have a handful of crop circling circle groups that are making these out across the world. And some of them have come forward, especially the ones in England. (31:17) Like I think it's called Project Satan that would later change their name to Circle Makers. And there's a few others as well. But that's one of the more famous ones. when we think of these healing properties, obviously the first thing that comes to mind, at least for me is it must be the placebo effect. (31:34) It must be all psychological where we have this idea that if I tell myself, you know what, there's a crop circle, it's going to heal me of all my ailments, right? And you go in and then you feel better, right? That's the placebo effect. But it is more difficult to explain the higher levels of radiation. (31:55) And what I think is a really interesting thing to consider here is these two points. You have one where you have crop circles that have probably been made by humans. And maybe those groups have said, yep, I made this. now they didn't tell everyone and so these people that are coming in to look at this crop circle they're having these psychosomatic what's the word I want to use psycho like they just think that they're being healed but just just bear with me on where I want to go with this what if this is like (32:33) kind of odd it's just a theory What if that if these crop circles are being made by people, what if it was on purpose in the sense of to do someone else's bidding or something else's bidding? Why am I bringing this up? Because there have been a handful of crop circles. that have been made and seen where people are seeing UFO sightings, where people are seeing these orbs going in and out of the fields. (33:03) The question is why, especially if those crop circles were made by people, what would be the purpose behind it? Look, if we're just tiny little ants, we're doing all the hard work, right? Don't you think? Hopefully what I'm saying is, Makes a little bit of sense here because it's just something that I'm speaking as I'm thinking about it, but there might be a little bit to it. (33:32) Back in 2014, and I remember this like it was yesterday, it was 10 years ago. And NVIDIA, right, the chip maker, the AI chip maker, NVIDIA, did a crop circle up near San Francisco. And it made the news. It made the media. And they did it out in this farmer's field to promote this newest chip set. And it was a, well, you can call it a crop circle. (34:02) It was a circle with a computer chip in the middle that was square. and had circles on the outside of it. Now, I don't remember the exact size or anything, but here's the thing with that. I remember looking at it and went, oh, okay, holy crap. And then I took a closer look and I went, eh, kind of sloppy. (34:24) All right, now this is NVIDIA, and it took them a couple of weeks to make this. And it's not that good. And the farmer was so angry about it. Immediately after he found out, he had the entire field plowed. So we couldn't go back and check it out and find out. But that was an example of something that was meant to be a media marketing ploy. (34:57) And it worked for a minute for NVIDIA. It was before the CES show in Las Vegas. But when you really took a close look at it, it was sloppy. And they did the best that they could, right? They had teams and they spent a lot of time on it. And it just wasn't that good. And then you look at this one, the famous three birds crop circle, which is, again, this is one of my favorites out there. (35:26) That is beautiful. It's pleasing. There's a message there. And if you look really, really close at how the birds are done and how the circles are done, this is geometrically as complex as anything that has ever been done. And it's just beautiful. Stunning. It's one of many that really have shocked people over the years on how it was created. (35:58) Now, can people make this? Sure, but you need to understand geometry, basic mathematics, and have a good team that at the very least you can trust that can mimic your work. What I did also would like to state, referring to Dr. Levengood earlier, was that he had researched more than 200 crop circle formations. (36:25) And what's interesting here, I'm about to sneeze. You got that sneeze button. You got that sneeze button. But what he also researched and something that there is this connection is animal mutilation. So we also investigated 12 animal mutilation cases and numerous locals which were reported to be UFO sightings. (36:55) included four landing traces in Israel and several over in the United States. And almost 90% of the plant samples collected, so out of that 200, 90% of the plant samples tested from each of these situations showed significant like honestly just significant changes in the cellular level when compared to controlled samples obtained in the exact same vicinities and the most common changes included included excuse me altered embryo development in seeds and enlargement in plant stems and nodes and marked bending on the stem nodes (37:46) from cavities blown into the nodes from the inside out. So from his research, he wasn't able to give a plausible explanation on how things like this were happening. But from the 200 fields that he collected these plants, again, 90% had all of the characteristics that I have just mentioned to you. And then he compared it to a... (38:14) a similar sample in the same vicinity, but not a part of that crop circle. And it was just your average plant. These ones had very bizarre changes in them. And to this day, it's still controversial. People don't want to look at that detail when conducting research into crop circles. And he is just one of the very few scientists that has taken a very serious tone with the crop circle research. (38:45) Yeah, don't take the mystery from me. Don't take it away from me. It's like Santa Claus. I'm going to stay right here. I'm okay with that. I love this aspect to it. And until there's some definitive... You know, the crop circle gang gets busted situation. Look, if you get a group together, like you had mentioned, the circle makers, you get a group together and you guys are out there doing it, go for it, right? But we know what you're doing. (39:18) It's the other ones. When you back up 1932, Christina, this isn't the circle maker. This is 1932. Archaeologist E.C. Kerwin observed four dark rings in a field at Soutendown near Chichester. But he could only examine only one. But he said, quote, a circle in which the barley was lodged or beaten down while the interior area was very slightly mounded up. (39:51) That's 1932. 1963, Patrick Moore described a crater Now, this goes back to what you had just said. This is why I'm mentioning this now. Described a crater in a potato field in Wiltshire that he considered was probably caused by an unknown meteoric body. Okay? A meteor. In nearby wheat fields, there were several circular and elliptical areas where the wheat had been flattened. (40:22) There was evidence of spiral flattening. Spiral flattening. Very interesting. Caused by a meteor? I don't know. He thought that it could have been caused by air currents from the impact of the meteor. Nobody knows. Now, astronomer Hugh Ernest Butler observed similar craters and said they were likely caused by lightning strikes. (40:50) Right. So this is a phenomenon that's been going on for a minute. Now, one of my favorite parts when we talk about this is the UFO connection. And in 1966, there was the Tully Nest. Do you have images of that? He does. You're going to pull this up. This is the 1966 Tully Saucer Nest. And it was when a farmer said he had witnessed, there it is right there, a saucer-shaped craft rise 30 or 40 feet from a swamp and then fly away. (41:31) On investigating, he found a nearly circular area, 32 feet long by 25 feet wide, where the grass was flattened in a clockwise curve to water level within the circle, and the reeds had been uprooted from the mud. That's pretty incredible. That's pretty incredible. During the 1960s, UFO sightings and circular formations in swamp reeds and sugar cane fields were happening all over the place. (42:03) This was a very, very strange situation happening at the same time. There was, I don't know if you have the video. pretty famous video on the internet that's been around for a few decades now of a light bouncing around an orb and ball lightning, which was also attributed, right, to crop circles, bouncing around in this field, and you could see the grass coming out where the light is bouncing, and you could see the circles form. (42:37) And then in the morning, they went out, and it looked like that, where it was a circular, flattened formation. Again, going right back to Levengood and his work, that's what this reminds me of. I'm not going fully sensational crazy town here, I just don't have the answers. You and me both. I don't have the answers either